tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post7410103731245729646..comments2023-06-06T06:49:04.399-07:00Comments on Cinder Bridge: Secondary gainscinderkeyshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01578961959712679966noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-38907067223951045672011-02-21T17:06:43.623-07:002011-02-21T17:06:43.623-07:00Yup!Yup!Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093224060056052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-57360817997517382352011-01-21T16:29:52.438-07:002011-01-21T16:29:52.438-07:00Brilliant blog, thanks for these insights.Brilliant blog, thanks for these insights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-22981552332743791122011-01-14T09:33:20.469-07:002011-01-14T09:33:20.469-07:00Still in touch. I don't think anyone ever foun...Still in touch. I don't think anyone ever found out what was causing the numbness, and eventually it went away on its own, though she's dealt with some other health issues. Perhaps because I've since met other people who have been badly treated by doctors, I suspect I'm more up in arms about the incident now than she is. :)cinderkeyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01578961959712679966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-58753794968114986242011-01-14T06:48:48.123-07:002011-01-14T06:48:48.123-07:00Are you still in touch with Liz? Do you know what ...Are you still in touch with Liz? Do you know what happened to her?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-8580088321921630132011-01-13T10:22:11.487-07:002011-01-13T10:22:11.487-07:00Great comments, everyone. I don't know if the ...Great comments, everyone. I don't know if the people crying "secondary gains" lack the capacity for critical thought, or if they simply choose not to engage it. Either way, I don't think it's possible to reach them through logical arguments. The only thing we can do is reach those who assume "in their heads" is correct because the so-called experts said so. If these ideas lose public support, the "experts" will quietly find something else to do.<br /><br />Kirk: Yeah, I'm pretty sure your chain-smoking friend wasn't chemically sensitive. I wonder what the heck her answer was to people who pointed out the contradiction. It's not like everybody was going to be too polite to ask. :)<br /><br />Anyway, hypochondria is a real thing too -- an anxiety disorder. Many hypochondriacs believe they have cancer. That doesn't mean cancer doesn't exist. And while you (Kirk) understand that, it seems to elude the medical doctors who ignore the avalanche of evidence that something is physically wrong with the patients they can't immediately diagnose.cinderkeyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01578961959712679966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-80340949849329320742011-01-12T22:01:31.843-07:002011-01-12T22:01:31.843-07:00"if you are not getting well despite attempts..."if you are not getting well despite attempts to heal, you ought to consider how your symptoms benefit you. Remember, we all use illness to get what we believe we can't get comfortably by direct means."<br /><br />Stuff like this is said by people who have never been truly ill. I could go on, but it's late and I'm tired.<br /><br />Great post.Jeff Shattuckhttp://www.cerebellumblues.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-67142472961863483662011-01-12T16:13:40.871-07:002011-01-12T16:13:40.871-07:00Excellent blog, Susan, as is Lily's blog and, ...Excellent blog, Susan, as is Lily's blog and, even better, her links to Richard Webster's Freud site, if you ever need the solid scholarly backing and citations for these arguments.<br /><br />This Webster link, in particular, is priceless (partially a review of Hillary Johnson): <br />http://www.richardwebster.net/hysteriarevisited.html<br /><br />But also wanted to say this terrible week: we hope you are all ok down there in Tucson. We send you prayers from around the world in your grieving.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-12430342180565129842011-01-12T10:23:02.867-07:002011-01-12T10:23:02.867-07:00Doctors get two things out of declaring a mystery ...Doctors get two things out of declaring a mystery illness to be psychosomatic: First, doctors get to rest easy knowing that this condition that put their medical/scientific abilities into question is a psychological one, and so they couldn't be expected to 'fix' it. Second, doctors ...get to say 'not my problem' and not have to deal with the sickies. I think a lot of doctors don't really WANT to cure anything hard. They just want to cure easy stuff and feel good about it.<br /><br />Besides, how do you bill insurance companies for a made-up disease?Brian McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18341634537134903424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-55796958444770821072011-01-12T09:59:55.142-07:002011-01-12T09:59:55.142-07:00Here's the thing, though. All other evidence f...Here's the thing, though. All other evidence for or against a physical cause aside, that's not the right way to look at it. IF it is a mental disorder, and not a physical one, then they don't need to be getting anything out of it for it to ...be in their head.<br /><br />And the waters are further muddied because there ARE people who claim MCS who most certainly don't have any sort of actual physical MCS. An anecdotal example: I knew someone, once upon a time (almost 20 years ago), who insisted that she had MCS. She'd list off a litany of everyday things that she couldn't tolerate, all the while puffing on the noxious chemical factory that is a cigarette. The contradiction of claiming chemical sensitivity to a zillion things, while being a heavy smoker never occured to her. I don't know what she got out of her assertion of MCS. Attention, maybe? But it's pretty implausible that she actually had any sort of physical disorder.<br /><br />People like that muddy the waters when considering whether there is a real, common hidden physical cause of other cases of CF/MCS.Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549034684875988024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-24368377620627877722011-01-12T07:05:16.543-07:002011-01-12T07:05:16.543-07:00I think there is some insecurity in some doctors, ...I think there is some insecurity in some doctors, manifesting itself as arrogance, hastiness, and such. A lot of people build a wall of denial around themselves so that they don't have to admit their shortcomings, and that can be true even for the gifted doctor. Perhaps for some, it's a personal affront that a disease is difficult to diagnose. They can't accept that their learning has limits, so they transfer the limits to the patient. That way, it's the patient's fault for being sick, not the doctor's for being unable to find the cause.<br /><br />Susan, your blog was very well-written. I'm going to share this with people. Especially good was your turn of "secondary gains" on its head. You could be a lobbyist for the ME/CFS community if you wanted.DeppityBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03739975299662947480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-75188010712503008192011-01-12T06:34:16.799-07:002011-01-12T06:34:16.799-07:00Wendy Beall lacks the capacity for critical thinki...Wendy Beall lacks the capacity for critical thinking if she equates calling in sick for one day of work to the loss of one's whole career, lasting for years or even decades.<br /><br />She, like the doctors who can't say "I don't know", are part of the "don't confuse me with the facts - my mind's made up" cult.<br />-Lilly CooperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8373573052582581717.post-60323981476025763082011-01-12T05:46:50.079-07:002011-01-12T05:46:50.079-07:00Excellent points, Susan. I think you are sadly co...Excellent points, Susan. I think you are sadly correct about the secondary gains people get in blaming the patient. It takes away the uncertainty, the sense of failure of a doctor not having the answers, and makes people feel like it could certainly never happen to them. <br /><br />I think there is that sense of blaming the patient sometimes even for well-recognized conditions like cancer. I read a book once by a doctor who noted that when a patient doesn't respond to chemotherapy, they often say "the patient failed to respond to treatment," not that the treatment failed them. <br /><br />Regarding doctor's being quick to dismiss ME/CFS, I have many stories I could choose from to illustrate that in my own experience. The one that comes to mind right now is one from many years ago (when I could still actually go to doctor appointments). This doctor, upon hearing I had CFS, immediately said, "I don't do CFS. I don't believe in it, I don't treat it, and I don't fill out disability forms for it." I watched her write "major depressive disorder" on my chart within 5 minutes of walking into the room. She did not ask me a single question about my medical history. When I told her I wasn't depressed, she actually said "I don't believe you." She then went on to tell me that I was causing undo harm and stress to my family, as though I were some kind of misbehaving young child. It was one of the worst experiences I've ever had with a doctor. <br /><br />Your friend (and those of us in the ME/CFS community) are lucky to have you as an advocate.Laurelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01688914443102913569noreply@blogger.com